Subject: That's a good idea.
Author:
Posted on: 2008-09-02 15:38:00 UTC
I think the best moments for Jack/Ianto are the kiss in "They Keep Killing Suzie" (series 1) and Jack asking Ianto on a date in "Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang" (series 2).
Anything else with a canonical slash pairing would work, too.
Most of you know about the research paper I'm doing for university; a broad overview of the world of fanfiction. I've finally finished sifting through all the data from interviews and other research, but a few gaps remain. So I'm throwing the question out to you:
Why do straight women write femslash?
I don't really understand slash at all, but that's personal preferance. I've been told, by many interviewees, that straight women can enjoy writing m/m slash because it lets them oggle two attractive guys without female competition (as well as simply "being hot"), but my Logic Circuits short out when I try to apply similar logic to straight women writing f/f slash.
Admittedly, I haven't got solid demographics here; it could be that a large part of femslash is written by bisexual or lesbian women. I don't know. What I do know is that I've been exploring the Wicked archive on FFN (which, if you don't know, is by and large a story about the friendship between two women, Glinda and Elphaba - there's also the man who ends up caught in a love triangle with them, Fiyero (eventually ending up with Elphaba), and another male interest that's quite often paired with Glinda), and I found that there is a (wonderful!) shortage of Mary Sues, an average amount of het romance (Fiyero/Elphaba, or Glinda/other guy, mostly), and a huge, HUGE amount of ("Gelphie") femslash.
As I find it hard to believe that so many writers for that one fandom just happen to be lesbian or bisexual women, I just don't get it.
(And let me disclaim that I mean no offense to anyone, of course. My preferances are my own and until now, I just avoided slash issues as much as possible because I don't understand and don't want to offend anyone. But for the sake of doing this essay right, I need to know, and my poor, pitiable Logic Circuits are crying out for mercy. Help?)
I've been puzzling over my own shipping preferences ever since I noticed that slash ticked me off, but femslash didn't. And from there, I can only bring myself to read femslash, not write it. Interesting double standards, aye?
I think it's because females feel more comfortable with their own bodies. So when they read femslash, they understand what the author might be going at in the writing. But hey, I don't know...I'm no sexuality expert.
Our own. I don't know about women feeling more comfortable with their bodies - there's certainly enough "This Is Pretty And You Don't Match Up" fashion around - but how can any of us really compare with another person? It involves getting completely inside their heads.
That said, it's a good theory. Cheers!
I was talking about both average-rated romance femslash and pure smut stories, as I'm really no judge of slashfic quality.
I suppose it's worth stating here that, after reading those forty different interviews, many of them from you lovely PPCrs (hugs), it's easy to conclude that I am (once again) something of the odd one out. I just can't bring myself to read slash that's beyond what can be talked off as friednship; I don't know why. I'm just traditional, I guess, and I always - in any subject - tend to stick with what I know. My own sexuality has a huge impact on what I read and write, and "fun pairings" have never appealed to me.
Maybe that's the problem? My lack of imagination? Or simple squickiness. I've got nothing against it, of course, but I just... I still don't get it. Intellectually, I agree with every point you guys have made
... I could start a long rant now on What's Wrong With Friendship?, but that's probably not a good idea. I tend to get dramatic. And I'm rambling far enough off-topic anyway.
But if nothing else, at least this makes the theoretical side of things clearer, and that's mainly what I need for my essay. I do feel a bit blind, though.
(And Lycaenion, to be honest, I haven't read Wicked yet, either; I'm talking mainly about the musical adaptation and all the fanfic for that.)
I can't understand how anyone could not get slash. ^_^" If you don't like the romance genre, then that's fine by me, but I don't get why someone would enjoy het pairings but not slash ones (unless said slash pairing breaks up their het OTP- I understand that all too well).
I love romance. I go all aww-ish and gooey over them. It might be my favourite genre. But every time I try to read slash, be it m/m or f/f, I just can't. It appears to be my personal squick, and I have no idea why.
I suppose it might be that the slash pairs break up my ideas of "correct" pairings - all of which, now that I think about it, are the deliberate canonical pairings. I've never found myself "seeing the potential" for pairings other than the established, except in cases where the characters never have an established partner. shrugs Perhaps, in that regard, I simply have no imagination.
Honestly, though, I don't think that's it. It sounds so terribly biased saying it, and I feel dreaful, but the mental image of two men or two women kissing - even if they're not characters I know - is possibly the most unromantic thing I can imagine. And it's horrible of me, but it's true.
If I may go on a slight tangent, it annoys me to no end that if a bisexual or gay person says they can't stand het relationships, they're practically martyred as "forward thinking" and "confidant", but if I say the same thing in reverse, I'm labled a homophobe. I'm not. I'm really not; I have nothing against homosexuality; I have gay friends, and I'm glad that people can be happy. It's just not for me. In Real Life or fanfic.
Perhaps the best illustration is thus: I'm perfectly fine with knowing the biological theory of how I came to exist, but that doesn't mean I'm happy to watch my parents have sex. I just don't need to see that.
... and I'm rambling again, aren't I? I do appreciate your attempt to make me feel better.
I didn't mean you were homophobic or anything like that- prejudice in the real world and prejudice in what you like reading are two very different things.
I was just going off on a tangent; it wasn't a reaction to anything you said. Sorry for the mix-up!
Honestly, though, I don't think that's it.
You could test the theory by watching Torchwood. Jack and Ianto are definitely a canonical couple, if that scene in "Adrift" is anything to go by.
And, if we're being honest, when it comes to romance fic I must admit to being somewhat heterophobic. It just... doesn't maintain my interest in the slightest. I'll have a ponder about why, in case that helps shed some light.
I think the best moments for Jack/Ianto are the kiss in "They Keep Killing Suzie" (series 1) and Jack asking Ianto on a date in "Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang" (series 2).
Anything else with a canonical slash pairing would work, too.
(I don't exactly have access to Torchwood...)
I'll look around for a good fic like that, then. It's definitely a good idea; thanks for suggesting it! I really don't know how I'll react. I'll keep to a midrange rating, though.
Cheers!
Everyone has their squick. My dad can't stand slash either. I've got plenty of things that make me go "Ew." I don't think you're a homophobe just because of that.
Saying that you don't enjoy reading about homosexual romance doesn't make you a homophobe, it just makes you honest :)
For my two cents, I dunno if this helps, but I find het romance fics ... er, boring. I dunno. I'm heterosexual, I'm engaged so, y'know, it's not that I'm against participating in a het romance myself. But reading about it makes me yawn. I'll read it, it doesn't squick me. But it doesn't grab my interest. Whereas slash pairings are always different.
This isn't always a good thing; for a start, they're usually written by straight people, which means you get a lot of what we could call mechanical errors, but ... it generally means they aren't as formulaic as a het pairing, esp. in a canon where homosexuality isn't common.
I'll stop rambling now :)
I was referring more to the other fanficcers out there, but nonetheless, it's comforting to hear someone say so. I'm most comfortable being honest; it's just such a touchy subject.
In any case, to follow your point there, Trojie, here's something to consider: While I was dating my last boyfriend, I read very, very few fanfic romances. After we broke up I delved into them, and now I read them on-and-off, but with no real "I want fluffy romance NOW" urges.
See a connection? ;) I suppose it's an extension of the escapism and fantasy aspects of fanfic; whether or not this 'substitution' is a good thing remains up for debate - my 2c is that daydreaming in fiction hasn't stopped me from looking for real life relationships.
(I can't say I had any hightening of interest in slash while I was dating, though. I don't think so.)
... of an introspective and delusional turn of mind, I don't think fanfic will ever really replace an actual relationship, I mean, most people are fully aware that the characters are fictional :)
... most
Absolutely. Fanfic can't replace any relationship, and is only really wish-fulfillment. But even though I understand that, I still wonder what would happen if I went to Narnia and got Caspian to fall in love with me or something.
But then I'd be a Mary Sue, stealing him away from Ramandu's daughter and Susan. And I'd have to PPC myself.
No one can be blamed for the thoughts in their minds; it's actions that are important. I'm sure that, if somehow we ever did turn up in Narnia (or wherever), we'd have the self-restraint not to glomp. And if it turns out that we* are actually the perfect match for Caspian or whomever... well, Fate must want it that way, right? :P
(* er... I mean as in third person genderless singular, not actual plural, because threesomes are rather unlikely to work out in this context...)
Wish-fullfilment and escapism are always allowed; we just need to know when to keep our mouths shut - or our fingers still - about it.
I don't think THEY would have enough self restraint to not glomp. And I think the theory was that a fangirl created the multiverse's first (serious) Mary Sue.
But then, I think the Universe / Multiverse has more sense than to let a fangirl anywhere in the same continuumn as her lust object. grin
...unless the multiverse's deity/deities/what-have-you were feeling particularly mischevious, or maybe they decided to get roaring drunk, or...whatever.
But if they are sane, they generally wouldn't do that. Unless the canonical in question was protected by an OFU, or a member of the Canon Protection Initiative. grin
And then, of course, there's also the lack of physical presence, which is rather important to many people. ;)
It could be them writing what they know. After all, for all that we've taken sex ed, we do know our own bodies better than those of the opposite gender. It may be easier for females (regardless of sexual preference) to visualize what two women would do than what two men (or even a man and a woman) would do.
That said, it could easily be for one of the reasons listed below.
I'd imagine similar reasons apply to writing f/f as writing m/m. Not having the appropriate manly bits, I can't really appreciate an m/m fic by identifying hugely with one or other character, but they're still interesting to read and write about, because we're not talking about pr0n here, we're talking about stories about people. You might as well ask why authors who happen to be lesbians write straight couples. The author's sexuality should have no more bearing on characters or plot or anything else than, for example, their skin colour or nationality.
Of course, if we are talking blatant pr0n, that's another matter entirely, and I doubt you'd get many wholly and comfortably heterosexual women writing PWP femmeslash. If you're writing or reading for the sex, after all, it's pretty pointless reading or writing about sex that really doesn't do anything for you.
... that they find interesting. I can't really comment, even though I like slash and femslash, because I'm bi. I have a straight friend who quite likes m/m but gets squicked at f/f. Maybe the straight women who write femslash just see a specific pairing and think "Oh, they are so together." Then they write it, not because it's hot, but because it's a romantic pairing that they find interesting. You don't have to find something "hot" to enjoy writing it. I mean, look at all the SyaoSaku fans. I doubt many of them see their relation as anything other than "omg so cute".
Most likely though is that they're just open-minded and mature enough to not let something like sexuality get in the way of writing a fun pairing.
Hmmm... while it is most likely true that lesbian/bi women might do a better job of writing femslash, it's perfectly possible that a straight woman could see two female characters as 'meant for each other,' and want to write this.
Or perhaps they feel that part of a certain female character's pysche is due to them pining for another female, and want to make this part of their story.
(N.B: I have not yet read Wicked, and the above are generalizations that probably don't support your example.)
However, if you're talking about bad or PWP fanfiction, I think you're right in saying that "omg they're so hawt!" isn't the correct reason.
But if f/f romance is an interesting plot point rather than just vapid porn, I don't think women have to be straight to write it.
For me, writing any relationship is a progression from what potential I can see for it in canon. If I see potential for a f/f sexual relationship, then that's what I'll write. If I feel up to writing smut for it, then why shouldn't I? It has nothing to do with my own personal sexuality.
Hope this helps you.